I love food. I like it a lot. I especially love Italian, and anything that has lemon and chicken and pasta in its title. Ok, that was random. I never ever would be able to have an eating disorder, or even be able to seriously diet for that matter. Sometimes, I do try to eat healthy but that's not for diet reasons, it is for health reasons. I exercise just so I don't have to diet. I never ever ever would want to give up food, and I never would want that right taken away from me. Do you see where I am going with this?
I am sorry, I am sure you have probably heard all you want to hear about the Schiavo case. I have too, but I am really upset by this. I fully believe in the right to die. If I was in a coma and being kept alive by a respirator, I would just want to die. It would save my family money, and I could move on to better things. The right to die basically means that you have the right to die if you choose if extraordinary means are needed to keep you alive. This includes things like a respirator, or reviving or stuff like this. THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE A FEEDING TUBE!
Terri Schiavo is responsive. She is awake, she is breathing on her own; the only thing she can't do is talk or walk. We have no clue what she is going through right now. She may not want to be alive, and she may not even have any clue what is going on around her.
This is what I do know: they are preventing her from even getting fed through the mouth. They aren't even trying to feed her normally. That is so inhumane. So the courts are just sitting back eating their popcorn watching this woman die a horrible death. If she has the ability to think, I wonder what she is thinking. If we are going to euthanize her, at least just get it over with; starving her is not the way to go. (Please note that I am not advocating euthanasia, this would be another discussion all in itself) I am absolutely pissed about this though. It must be heartbreaking for her family to sit back and not even be able to attempt to feed her. The husband doesn’t care. He has moved on, and he is just waiting to spend all that money once she is gone. GRRRRR...I am sad that this has escalated to such a public matter. This has to be even harder on the family.
Well, there is absolutely nothing I can do, so I will just sit back and be pissed about it. What is going to happen next? Are we going to say that people that have to be kept alive with an inhaler (for their asthma) or people that have to live their life taking insulin are using extraordinary means and they have the right to die? In that case, I guess sign me up. If you put me in a room with a cat for a long period of time without my inhaler, I probably would eventually die. My lungs would be so cut off from oxygen. It would be awful. Well, I guess that is the way it would have to be since my inhaler would be extraordinary means. I know that that example is a bit extreme, but it could get there. Only the strong and healthy survive: Darwin’s survival of the fittest taken to a whole new level.
I find it a bit ironic that at the same time that Schievo is getting all this attention, the Pope is having a feeding tube put in. Would we ever consider that extraordinary means to keep him alive? I think not!
What are all your thoughts on all this? I am interested in hearing different viewpoints, so if you aren't sick of talking about this already (I know I am a little late to be jumping on the bandwagon) tell me your thoughts!
55 comments:
I have some advice for the pope. Don't visit Florida!!!
Terry's husband is a jerk. This is very similar to Scott what's his nuts, who murdered his wife. If you don't want her: DIVORCE HER!! While that is not great, it is WAAAY better than killing her.
We executed Nazis for starving people to death as a war crime.
What goes around comes around, though. He is failing in one of his prime objectives as a husband which is to provide security for your family. No, it is worse instead of providing and caring for her he is murdering her. I hope her family hits him up in civil court, and he ends up out on the street with no money or possessions. Maybe this seems unchristian, and perhaps you have a point but I am remembering David's prayer for punishment of the wicked in Psalms 109:
O GOD of my praise,
Do not be silent!
For they have opened the wicked and deceitful mouth against me;
They have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
They have also surrounded me with words of hatred,
And fought against me without cause.
In return for my love they act as my accusers;
But I am in prayer.
Thus they have repaid me evil for good
And hatred for my love.
Appoint a wicked man over him,
And let an accuser stand at his right hand.
When he is judged, let him come forth guilty,
And let his prayer become sin.
Let his days be few;
Let another take his office.
Let his children be fatherless
And his wife a widow.
Let his children wander about and beg;
And let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes.
Let the creditor seize all that he has,
And let strangers plunder the product of his labor.
Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him,
Nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children.
Let his posterity be cut off;
In a following generation let their name be blotted out.
Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD,
And do not let the sin of his mother be blotted out.
Let them be before the LORD continually,
That He may cut off their memory from the earth;
Because he did not remember to show lovingkindness,
But persecuted the afflicted and needy man,
And the despondent in heart, to put them to death.
He also loved cursing, so it came to him;
And he did not delight in blessing, so it was far from him.
But he clothed himself with cursing as with his garment,
And it entered into his body like water
And like oil into his bones.
Let it be to him as a garment with which he covers himself,
And for a belt with which he constantly girds himself.
Let this be the reward of my accusers from the LORD,
And of those who speak evil against my soul.
Amen.
From the middle of that:
Because he did not remember to show lovingkindness,
But persecuted the afflicted and needy man,
And the despondent in heart, to put them to death.
To where have we fallen that life has little to no meaning??
Also pertinent might be Psalms 58:6-11
I am sorry this is so long, but this really upsets me. I think of how she can't eat everytime I eat something. I am stopping as I am near to tears.
JB
YESSS!!! I solved that puzzle in 34 moves. However, I think it only shuffled about 5 tiles. lol.
I am on a quest to find the other two ornate standpipes in the US. I know no-one really cares about this but me, and possibly JR, but it is a non-destructive way to satisfy my obsessive-compulsive needs.
Note to self: Don't post anymore comments after midnight, because they make no $@%#!-ing sense to anyone, including me.
Bye.
JB
i'm neutral to the blog war.
*lindsey
ps-sorry...i like to be random
I think I have too much to say about this, and I haven't said crap: Okay, first off, it has been over 15 years! I think her husband figured it out within the first five or ten when doctors said, "What's left of her cerebral cortex is non-functional and her body is scavanging it for nutrients." I think that when most of your brain is filled w/ spinal fluid, you're pretty much toast. I think just having a brain stem is not living. I mean, look at Ozzy Osbourne. We all know he's going soon. Going to the same place Terri is, he's barely responsive, and he just has a fried brain, not a lack-of brain. This is like a "save the sponges" foundation. Yes, sponges exist and grow, but they have no conscious thought. It's inhumane not to feed her yes, but ironically enough SHE HAD BULIMIA!!! She was doing it to her damn self, it was just a matter of time before her husband, of all people, supported her addiction to not eating and pulled the tube... okay, that's a little wrong but I'm so sick of the news on this.
You know what they should get from all this... or I thought you knew, I thought your anti-eating disorder emotion was geared more toward the fact that the whole reason this Terri Schiavo fiasco is going down is because she had an eating disorder. Anyway, I have a vision for a commercial: "Chunky" girl sees guy. Guy walks by. Girl throws up. Guy talks to "new girl" (new actress, skinnier but similar looks as the previous, more rotund actress). Show girl passing out later or something. Cut to video of Terri Schiavo. Bam, drop bulimia in the country like 50%, because it's definitely not chic to be in a coma, I don't care how fat and vain you are, that will kill whatever is in you that makes you want to live on liquids. Or you're just far more insane than suspected and you earn your grave through your short-sightedness. Either way, through that at least her death wouldn't have been in vain. I have a lot to say about how stupid this whole thing is, but I'm done; I'll leave room for the more heartfelt responses because I realize this is pretty cold but come on. One last thing: I don't cry when I smash pumpkins, I don't feel sorry for the apple as I shred and crush it with my teeth right after I severe it from its "feeding tube" (i.e. pull it off the tree), if I step on a bug it doesn't ruin my day. What do all of these things have in common?
The problem is unfortunetly that Terri married the wrong man. He is a heartleaa ba$tard. Granted this is something that should have been addressed 15 yrs ago. What it breaks down to now is money. Her husband sounds like he wants the life insurance and her family will do anything to stop that. That isnt the real issue. I think what all of america needs to learn from this is that a living will is a must now days. When 2/3rds of all marriages end in divorce. The same person you are getting a divorce from would like no less than to take all of your money. Since this guy already has children by another mother I sway towards money as the contributing factor. She is only operating off of the basic functions and reflexes in her brain.
But how do we know?
This is another theory. The fact that she can still smile and breath has been atributed to the fact that she is only working off the brain stem. However she could be in some work of a waking coma and see, feel, hear everyone around her but becuase of some sort of a stroke not be able to reply. I dont know what else can be done.
Either way starvation is a horrible way to die. I wouldnt wish it upon anyone. With that said I hope either A. She lives, B. Our laws drastically change.
The Right to be Recesitated....
This is something that should be on our license. Just like being a donor. This is something that should be asked. Maybe instead of the heart for a donor. Put another relevant symbol. I think it would work and could be a great idea.
Anyways enough of that!
Sacul Rehsa..well, pretty blunt, to say the least. The English language is pretty funny, and can be really idiotic indeed. We like to use words to define a thing as it exists in the real world. We use the word fetus (noun, developing human being) and change it into an adjective, for example, "fetal" tissue. Hmmm....So I guess words are what define things as they exist in the real world. Words make it what it is? Well, if that's the case, then we have a major, major issue here. The Nazis used words to define what JEWS,HOMOSEXUALS, and the DISABLED were to promote their propaganda; for example, Rats, vermin, subhuman, filth, etc. Pretty unintelligent to me.
So I guess the point your trying to make near the end of your comment is that Terri Shiavo is a "vegetable", in a vegetative state. Well, if people actually believe that, we have an educational issue here. We need to revamp the whole educational system so that students know what makes a human being, a human being just by its very nature. What makes a baby inside a womb mere tissue and not a human being? It's not a sperm nor an egg. SO WHAT IS IT? IT's a whole new thing. It's soul is there, at the moment of conception. A baby outside the womb can't eat on its own. It needs assistance. Can anyone remember anything before the age of 1? I can't. I guess we could take a survey and probably get results that show that long-term memory doesn't activate before a certain time, so therefore we can say that the baby isn't human yet.
I guess we need to revamp the laws because I can be put in jail for starving a dog or a cat, but when it comes to a case like Terri Shiavo's, well I guess it doesn't matter, because she's a vegetable (in her very essence), says the courts.
A woman can have an abortion and that's ok. If she's under eighteen, she doesn't have to let her parents know, yet if she wants to have a tattoo, she needs the parent's consent. A pregnant woman who loses an unborn baby due to her husband beating her, can charge her husband for murder. SCOTT PETTERSON was charged for two murders, one for his wife, and one for the unborn child. Hmmm....but what makes abortion ok? Either its a human being or not. The laws are screwed up and we allow doctors to make the decision of what's life and not.
Doctors have been wrong in the past when giving a diagnosis for patients. They don't know for certain what Terri is thinking, or if she is thinking at all. I guess all Alzheimer's patients are not really alive since they don't have a sense of reality nor any communication after a certain stage.
Basically, her parents want to take care of her. Her "husband" has moved on with his life: 2 kids, living with another woman. Divorce her and let the family, who truly loves her, take care of her. They love her regardless of her medical condition. That's true, unconditional love.
To be continued............
Brian Scheidler
Wow...you guys were all up really late. I thought I was pushing it to stay up and write this post.
Sacul...I would not call anybody who can eat through their mouth a vegetable. They aren't even trying that, and if there is any small chance that she is suffering then this is absolutely cruel. Maybe she can't eat, or maybe she is not willing to, and she would rather die. They should at least try to feed her normally!
Wow...you guys were all up really late. I thought I was pushing it to stay up and write this post.
Sacul...I would not call anybody who can eat through their mouth a vegetable. They aren't even trying that, and if there is any small chance that she is suffering then this is absolutely cruel. Maybe she can't eat, or maybe she is not willing to, and she would rather die. They should at least try to feed her normally!
Sacul:
I am dissapointed in you, which won't mean much because I don't even know you. Rose has spoken so highly of you, though.
To compare a human, who has a soul, with an apple or pumpkin is atrocious in my opinion.
I have some disagreement on various topics with Brian, but I could not agree with his words more on this post.
What you're suggesting, Sacul, is that WE become as GOD and decide who lives and dies based on their usefulness to us personally. We actually have people who do that now, they are called murderers.
I'll just stand behind what Brian said, I can't type anymore lest I pound my keyboard through the desktop.
JB
I just did it 94 moves..at least i finished it.
Well, Terri Schaivo has passed away. You can read about it here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/?GT1=6305 . What is even more sickening is that her "husband" denied access to her family in her last moments. They couldn't even be by her side. The only people that love her couldn't be in there. 13 days of starvation is definatly not a way to mercifully kill somebody. I am not even sure Dr. Kovorkian (or however you spell it) would want to do that.
I've grown weary of giving my opinion on this case. I did find this article rather thought provoking though: http://www.abpnews.com/news/news_detail.cfm?NEWS_ID=595
Warning! Rant mode engaged!
Ugh. She can eat through her mouth? I think not. She can be FED through her mouth, but seeing as how she can only digest, which is left up to her brain stem (involuntary smooth muscle contraction), she has no VOLUNTARY action (like chewing, or asking for/seeking food, or EVEN giving indication that she's hungry. even babies can do that). I mean, they are PUMPING food into her stomach, they're keeping her alive. How are we not already playing God by keeping this creature alive? We enrich the soil with nutrients and use artificial lighting to keep plants alive, we feed our fish to keep them alive, and the fish even have the luxury of moving their jaw, we don't have to pump the food directly to their bodies. Now voluntary action is an indication of freewill is it not? Is freewill indication of a soul? Okay, nevermind, I don't want to open that can of worms. My point is, she has/had no thought. This can be shown threw numerous studies on the human brain. I will say that this is probably ultimately just a money struggle, but if that's the case I think we're missing the point; both sides are wrong. Who says her family doesn't just want the money and is just going to wait a couple of years until she dies or just pull the plug as well? True and unconditional love: for money. Who says her husband doesn't want the money just to pay back the medical bills? Side note: I like the fact that her husband is seeking legal actions against doctors who didn't diagnose her bulimic condition. That would have averted this disaster altogether.
The reason I don't want to bring the question of a soul into this is because this is a legal matter. Bush has brought back a bit of the blending of church and state, but religious arguments just don't hold up in legal proceedings except in the case of mental/psychological conditioning which is not relevant here.
For Brian: Comparing Terri to a vegetable is an analogy. Vegetables involuntarily retrieve nutrients from the environment and break them down into key components necessary for their survival. This is exactly what Terri was doing. They pumped a nutrient paste into her internal organs where she could digest it to keep them alive. Her brain, her thought, was/is not an issue here, similar to any being that lacks capability for conscious thought. In all actuality, what's to say we weren't trapping her soul in her body by keeping it alive... if that's where the soul exists? Maybe it passed on 15 years ago when the "soul chamber" of the brain was destroyed... whoever knows what gives indication of a soul and/or where it is please enlighten me and the rest of the world so we can put all these issues to rest. Until then, I and the rest of the world will go on the facts that we're given.
The difference between baby brain tissue and, well, any adult is actually very little (in a general scheme and specifically for this argument, obviously it varies from person to person and genes expressed at the different age levels are different). Both have "programmed" limits for brain cell production (muscle and other choice tissues share this feature, controlled by different pathways). Once they reach this limit, they maintain, they do not continue to reproduce, lest they be cancerous. The difference between killing a baby and killing an adult is huge. Babies aren't near their full capacity, not even when their out of the womb (they've still got about two years of development). Adults, however, have been for some time and their brain will not grow back without introduction of, say, embryonic stem cells (adult stem cells may work, but embryonic are much better as they haven't chosen a pathway yet... kinda like training a vet. blacksmith to take up embroidery or training a 10 yr. old). Anyway, a little research on this topic will show you that a baby's brain will continue to develop, an adult's won't without introduction of some outlawed surgery, i.e. when your brain is gone, it's gone baby (pun!). This was the case with Terri. In summation; fetal tissue has a future: adult tissue. Adult tissue has a future: death. Sigh, ask a biologist for the full story. Preferably one that doesn't feel his/her religious values are being comprimised because religion can't be proven anytime a debate like this comes up.
Mr. beernuts: How are we not playing God by keeping her alive all these years? Weren't we playing God when she was clinically dead and we revived her only to have her haunt us with this issue 15 years later? I addressed this before a couple of paragraphs back but that's my main question; because now you raise a big theological question within myself: Apparently, I play God with E. coli. I prepare their nutrients, deliver it to their universe--the microcosm of a 2L Erlenmeyer flask--and control the temperature so they will be "happy" and grow. I give them DNA instead of blessings, and this in turn selects which ones will live and which ones will die, depending on which ones accept my blessing (the ones who accept will be able to live through the next phase: antibiotic treatment... comparable to accepting a blessing to deal with life's next issue). In return, rather than worship me and pray to me, they give me the protein I want to study (and who knows? if the soul is actually somewhere in cellular DNA maybe they do worship and thank me but I'd rather not think that). Then, when I choose that they're done serving me, I do the "ultimate God act" and kill them by blasting them with sound waves (to break down their membranes and harvest the protein, not just thinking of creative ways to kill them because I'm a scientist, and not just torturing them with bad 80s big hair rock, though the wave frequencies are comparable). To make sure there are no survivors, I bleach the leftovers. So what's to say I'm not playing God? Well, God I hope doesn't see it that way, because in that case you could continually take it to a smaller and smaller level to the point where you say "Any conscious manipulation of the universe is playing God." I refuse to give any one human or group of humans that kind of respect as to even compare them to a miniscule fraction of harnessing the power of God; I see his power as incomprehensible to the point that fighting about who is playing God is pointless because we have not the slightest clue as to even begin to define where his powers lie. So I guess before you accuse anyone of playing God, you should define what "playing God" is lest the doctors and scientists get offended. Sorry for the beastly comment post, I think I'm done.
Mr. Beernuts said...
Sacul:
The difference between playing GOD with a human and bacteria is that humans were created in GOD's image and were recipients of the breath of life.
Your bacterial example is puerile and non-responsive. It totally avoids the issue. In Genesis, GOD gave man dominion over all lower creatures. So play and experiment with lower creatures all you want as long as you are being a good steward of GOD's creation. GOD has ordained that. However, HE drew the line at humans. There is a specific protocol, if you will, on how humans should be treated. It is mostly based on the idea of the sanctity of human life. So the definition of playing GOD would be to be making decisions that GOD has generally reserved for HIMSELF. Who really cares whether that offends the arrogance of pissy little scientists. GOD actually mentioned these "scientists" and "doctors" who lack the courage or wisdom to acknowledge GOD in their ways no matter how educated they become. Romans 1:21,22 - For even though they knew GOD, they did not honor HIM as GOD or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools
Secondly, she was not brain dead. Some "doctor" tried to claim this on national TV last night, but was instantly refuted by three other "doctors" on the same show. You claim she was incapable of conscious thought. I believe you are ignoring the evidence. You could see CLEARLY that she was responding to her mother, and even apparently trying to mouth words. Her mom told her a joke about going out and getting something to eat after this was all over, and that mass of tissue which you claim to be incapable of thought, looked at her and smiled. You may say I am ignoring the evidence of what "scientists" or "doctors" have said. I take it into account, but it cannot overcome what my eyes have seen, and the testimony of others that are close to the situation.
GOD doesn't mind us maniputing the universe particularly. HE said at the time of the tower of Babel that "now nothing they set their mind to will be denied them." GOD also does not mind, and in fact encourages the taking of human life in various circumstances.
Killing a defenseless woman is not one of them.
I took your advice and talked to a biologist friend of mine. In fact he has a masters degree in biology. I assume that is educated enough for a verifiable opinion??? He said that all tissue's future is death. Also, he said the debate of adult stem cells versus embryonic stem cells is largely based on philosophy and not science. Either will generally work. This is all sort of paraphrasing because he went on at some legnth. So according to a "scientist" you are raising a philosophical issue and attempting to disguise it as science!
Rose, your blog is wearing me out!!
JB
You know why don't you just start protesting outside every hospital in America that has ever let anyone die by taking out someones feeding tube? Yeah, the day that all you pro-lifers move from outside the abortion clinics to outside hospitals will be the day I'd like to see. My stepfather was in a similar situation, he tried to kill himself, it didn't work right away, etc etc He was int he hospital, very little brain function, but he could breathe and pump blood, etc on his own. Only he had a feeding tube. Hmmmmm, guess how he died? We had the feeding tube taken out. I believe he died a very peaceful death. This happens EVERY DAY, get over it. It was a personal matter that should have never been taken as far as it was. It's really none of our business what Michael Shiavo decides or what the Schindlers want.
I also wanted to point out that while all this Terri Schiavo stuff was going on, nine people, yes NINE innocent people were shot and killed in Minnesota in an incident much like Columbine. I believe that this should have been bigger news and is a much more tragic situation than Terri Schiavo. Wake up people, get your own life.
Oh yeah, since I'm speaking to the conservative crowd here, did anyone hear about the intelligence about Iraq having WMD's was dead wrong? Why don't you people start caring about the innocent lives in Iraq and Afghanistan that are being taken every day? What about our soldiers? Every day another one goes and we think nothing of it anymore. Is that not just as tragic as some woman in Florida having her feeding tube removed? Apparently not to the majority of you.
-Sarah
Sarah, you bring up a good point. The thing about this that made me the most mad is that there was a possibility she could eat on her own, but they weren't even allowed to do that. We don't know if she was feeling anything or not. I am glad to see that she is not suffering anymore. Sorry that this hit so close to home :(
Sarah:
I don't understand why you liberals think everyone was so much better off with Saddam Hussein. We conservatives DO care about the "innocent" people over there. People were being fed into tree shredders and all sorts of tortures, and now they are not. If it were up to you liberals, you'd keep making teary emotional pleas while the UN sat around and picked their collective butt, and people would still be being fed into tree shredders. If you like that culture so much, go live in a muslim run country. You think you hate conservatism HERE?? There, a man can strike you just for making eye contact. I am pretty sure there were weapons of mass destruction, and he made clear his intent to develop them. They were spirited away while the UN was still there, according to some news outlets. Even if they weren't, the world in general and Iraq in particular is better off without that despotic dictator.
You are letting your hatred for GW cloud your logic, in my opinion.
Also, yes, you are right. I am pro-life. I will always fight to protect the defenseless in that. As to your step-father, if I saw video of him responding and smiling at you, and other family members were public in their belief that he was responsive, I would be upset by that as well. You say you believe he died a peaceful death. Some may believe he died an excrutiating death because you starved him to death. The point is you don't really know, do you? Why not do like the Army does? When they realize a soldier has a mortal wound on the battlefield, they give him enough morphine to let him fall asleep and then he just stops breathing as he sleeps. Was morphine(or whatever) too expensive for Terry, or your step-dad for that matter. Why starve him/her to death. That is what you pro-death people don't get. Compassion for the defenseless.
You are concerned about 9 people killed in Minnesota, yet are totally OK with murdering millions of babies. Here is a strawman of your logic. Sarah, 9 people die every day - GET OVER IT. Not very appealing, huh? But that is the pro-death/euthanasia goofed up logic. It is probably only a matter of time until you start defending those that kill people with Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and such. I do feel badly for the people in Minnesota. That was not what we were discussing though.
You mention about caring about soldiers. Your logic is again faulty. You are inferring that if we care about Terry Shiavo, we cannot possibly care about soldiers or the people in Minnesota for that matter. Is that how a liberal heart is? You can only care or have compassion for one group of people at a time? How sad.
You mention that we should get our own life, yet you are the one spewing party-line liberal vective. So.....get your own life, and quit being just a robot that the liberal platform can just program. I disagree with some of the Republican platform, in fact, I have never voted for George Bush. What do you disagree with on the liberal platform? Oh, nothing. Doot. Doot. I am a robot.
What would you have us as a country do about Iraq? Pull out? Let the UN and therefore a dictator back in? Grab some backbone. Yes, soldiers die in war. It is something soldiers realize we may be called on to do. Not everything in life is easy. We are there, like it or not, and we have to finish what we committed to do. Whining about it now is akin to trying to unscrew a pregnant woman.
JB
Now you have offended my freedoms as an American Soldier by saying I should not defend the defenceless... I am from a family of Army soldiers who all have been around the world many times just to sit and get shot at by people who kill kids and women.
Tell that crap you talk about to the helpless people of the middle east. I believe we should drop a bomb and aniliate the tyranny. Too bad they hide and fight like a bunch of pansey in and amoungst schools and hospitals..
Swallow your freedoms and take a step back and thank you Gods or what ever the hell you think gives you power to submit such bullsh@t ideals.. If you don't like it here go somewhere else, oh sorry, our military might show up there too.
Did you like Clinton who did not stick up for our country and let them kill us? I don't agree with any political parties. I did not vote for any idiots. But at least George W is sticking up for our country.
Wolfe
Now you have offended my freedoms as an American Soldier by saying I should not defend the defenceless... I am from a family of Army soldiers who all have been around the world many times just to sit and get shot at by people who kill kids and women.
Tell that crap you talk about to the helpless people of the middle east. I believe we should drop a bomb and aniliate the tyranny. Too bad they hide and fight like a bunch of pansey in and amoungst schools and hospitals..
Swallow your freedoms and take a step back and thank you Gods or what ever the hell you think gives you power to submit such bullsh@t ideals.. If you don't like it here go somewhere else, oh sorry, our military might show up there too.
Did you like Clinton who did not stick up for our country and let them kill us? I don't agree with any political parties. I did not vote for any idiots. But at least George W is sticking up for our country.
Wolfe
Oh goodness... I'm no medical doctor but that is how people die every day, by having their feeding tube taken out. Yes, it happens EVERY DAY! I truly believe in my heart he died a peaceful death. I don't even know if we were given the option of morphine, that was between my mother and his doctors. Ok, I don't agree with everything, I'm not a robot. If anything you are the robot Mr. Everyone no matter what state they are in should live. My stepfather did look at me and smile before we made the decision to let him go. We were pretty sure he would not want to live like that. About the war, I HATE WAR. You know if we are so into saving peoples lives and doing the "right" thing maybe we should have interfered in Sudan, eh? Or how about another Muslim country? No, we chose Iraq because of Bush's personal grudges. Oh no, this is my country too, there are plenty of liberals out there too, I'm not going anywhere. That is unless my uncle really does move to France, I might follow him.
Onto abortion... No, I'm not Ok with babies being murdered, after a certain point. I'm a mother and I could not imagine having an abortion after the first trimester. I think partial birth abortion is wrong and I was THRILLED when it was outlawed. I will not say that I am pro life. I'm not exactly pro choice, but I will never tell a woman what to do with her body. Lots of my friends have had abortions and I feel badly for them, but it's not my job to tell them what they can and cannot do with their body.
Oh yes, and 9 people die eveyday, I'll give you that. But by a teenager walking into school shooting his classmates? I think not...
Last but not least, I just think the Terri Schiavo issue is a personal issue. It was taken too far. I would never want to live in the state she was in. In fact I don't think any of us would. Let the woman and her family have some peace.
-Sarah
Doot. Doot. I am a robot. Take me to your leader. 9 people murdered is 9 people murdered, whatever the reason. Whether it is at school or work or walking down the street. It is no worse just because it happened in a school, is it? Yes. I think it is horrible. But no more horrible than other murders.
War. Nobody likes war. It is horrible. But it is sometimes necessary. I think that people think Jeffersonian liberals like me enjoy war. I don't think anybody does, really. What do you do though to preserve the greater good? Talk with them while they are attacking your civilians? Put flowers in their mailboxes? I don't know. Sometimes you have to take the fight to someone. We lost a lot of civilians on September 11th. We didn't start it, but we will.....no....we MUST finish it. The alternative is that we will become the available target of all who hate us.
I also agree with you that we should intervene in other places as well, but we do have to finish what we start.
By the way, I know I have to be misreading your comment, but you make it sound as if you are OK with murdering babies unless they are over a certain age or something.
By the way, Michael Schiavo is the one who started all the court proceedings, not anyone else. If they wanted to keep it a personal and family matter, he should not have taken it to court in my opinion.
Anyway, I thought your comment this time used less invective and more rationality than the last one. Although, I am also smart enough to realize that my opinions of your comments will probably mean very little to you. lol.
It has been nice to talk with you, and see another viewpoint.
Thanks,
JB (Jeffersonian Liberal)
P.S. - The Doot, Doot at the beginning was about me not you.
Mr. Beernuts,
I believe I've misread your comments concerning the nature of the war in Iraq. Your statments in paragraph 2 of the above post seem to rationalize the Iraq War as a type of justice being served on behalf of those lost in the September 11th tragedy, or in some type of preventative measure springing from that impetus. Regardless of one's opinions on involvement in the war (though I oppose the Iraq War with every fiber of my Christian conscience) it should be duly noted that that the situation in Iraq is not organically tied to those responsible for the Terrorist Attacks on 9-11.
Thank you Matt!
JB- Since you are not a woman and not a medical doctor, your opinions on abortion mean absolutely nothing to me. The day you get pregnant you can talk to me about murdering babies... When does an embryo become a baby? I think that's the age old question none of us can truly answer. Yes, it's been a pleasure to argue with you.
Rose- please come up with another post or whatever it is you bloggers call it... another subject to discuss. Something a little less controversial...
I'm done giving my opinion on this subject, thanks for listening.
-Sarah
Uhhhh. I think I might be pregnant. I wonder who the father is?? lol. OK. I am suffering from a deplorable lack of shock that my opinions are meaningless to me. However, yours are not meaningless to me, although I disagree with you. I am open to listening and analyzing any point of view. Dialogue between opposing view points is very important.
No, Matt, you misunderstood what I was saying. The war is not a type of justice waged on behalf of the people lost on 9/11. However, our foreign policy indicates that states that are friendly to terrorists will be treated as terrorists themselves. Look what has happened. We have had no other major terroist attacks on our country since. By taking the fight to the terrorists and supportive states, they cannot focus on us as a target as they are busy defending themselves. I support the United States in it's effort to protect its citizens with every fiber of MY Christian conscience.
Anyway, that was the meaning that you misunderstood. Making the terrorists fight us in a place other than the US is the point, I believe.
I will not fight with you, Matt. Out of respect for a mutual friend's wishes. You intigue me, though.
What would your solution be, is my question for you? If we did not force the fight elsewhere, and another building was destroyed with massive loss of civilian life, what would be your course of action?
JB
Matt:
I forgot to tell you. I read that article, and while I am in general disgreement with most of it, it was well written and thought provoking. Just as you had promised.
Thanks,
JB
Just take a look on the history of the attacks of terrorism against this country dating back since the election of Clinton. How can you say the war was not justified? No more barracks of defensless soldiers sleeping, no more attacks on ships in harbor while troops are enjoying a weekend off since they do work 24 hours a day 7 days a week. You pampered asses who have no clue on the real world, stay at home with your cuddly little kids and your nice paying jobs! We soldiers who don't get paid even near what minimum wage is can't afford to maintain a home for our families! We have to sneak into the mess hall and not pay just to make sure our families have food at home. We don't get to see our families for months at a time, and you say we should not go to war because it is not justified. We should really rethink why you have the freedoms that are a privilege for you to have. These are not rights. We gave you that. We earned it for you. Who are you to say anything about what we should do? My wife and child deserve to live in a free land, free of tyranny! I earned it for them. I earned it for our country to have these freedoms.. God Bless America. You can go to church and not be killed because of your beliefs.
Abortion! I gave you that right to speak about it! Go have fun! Eye for an eye... we should cut off the hands for the hands that cut up our kids.. how corrupt is that? Yes God forgives us.. You have to answer to him for that. What is the difference between shaking baby syndrome and abortion? You paid for one and got one for free! You should be ashamed as a parent!
Terrorism has been justified by the hands of civilians.. Don't invade countries but kill our kids before they are born. What is the difference? Killing is killing.. Defending is different.
We are defending the Irag, and Afghanistan people as much as we are our own country.. Don't watch the news.. (Propaganda) go over and check is out.. Oh you don't have the balls.. run your petty little mouth and believe what you want.
God Bless America
God Bless our Troops
God Heal the Pope before they pull out his feeding tube..
May I have many kids before it is a law they have to be born in a test tube! Don't skake the tubes - that could be abortion too...
Wolfe
Holy Shit! This discussion digressed really quickly many a posts ago. Here's the problem with the comments. When someone brings up an issue, in this case the terry shiavo feeding tube issue, the comments typically need to be confined to that issues or things directly related. Just war, conservative vs. liberal, supporting the troops, etc. None of this stuff relates to quality of life and right to die issues. Sacul tried to bring in some hard evidence to the table but Mr. Beernuts decided he could trump that with a literalist interpretation of genesis. Science and scriptural interpretation don't make good arguing opponents. And for God sakes would everyone that isn't well-informed about the philosophical study of logic quit accusing people of bad logic. Its making me nauseous.
Cheers
p.s. This is a great example of what happens when a potentially enlightening discussion turns into an emoting session.
|vomits all over the place|
I didn't bring up the war, abortion or any of the ancillary issues.
|PUKE|
I will admit I am a strict constructionist when it comes to the scriptures and the constitution. But, then, you knew that about me, Adam.
|BRAAAAAP|
Science and scripture DO go well together in my opinion. GOD is the greatest physicist.
|DRY HEAVES|
WHOOOOHOOOOO!!!!! Another Blog thread to 30, Rose.
(That is the purpose of this comment.)
Great Job!!!
Somebody grab Wolfies tongue. I think he had fit of some sort!!! lmbo.
JB
Post 31
Wolfe
As Adam so stated, my blog has been hijacked, so while it is totally off the topic, I may as well go there too. I consider myself a scientist. I also consider myself a Christian. I used to want to use the science to prove the Bible, then I realized that was incredibly stupid. Why do we need to prove the Bible? So more people will believe? They won't. I think scripture talks about that somewhere. The guy in hell pleads with Jesus to be able to send somebody to tell his brothers that Jesus is for real, and Jesus says something to the affect that the still wouldn't belief. I don't remember. I can't handle creation scientists. They nearly drive me nuts. I think that the Bible can be used with science, but it is not necessary. Most scientists don't care about what the Bible says, so you can't bring it up in an argument. That is what a lot of creation scientists do. They say well the Bible says this.. News for you!!!! evolutionist don't care what the Bible says!
Alright..I think that was enough off the train tracks for us all...
Oh my gosh... Rose it is all your fault starting a new subject! If your a scientist, Mr. Beernuts is a mom in high heals 6 months pregnant.
LMFBO
Wolfe
ok wolfe..now you are going to piss me off. I have my degree from Purdue school of Science thank you very much. I have taken more science classes than most people should. I just can't keep away. I have taken all the math, biology and chemistry anybody should take. I love to play with DNA, enzymes, and bacteria. I think the word phosphofructokinase is amazing. Sacul would agree with me :) I love to do proofs. Can anybody tell me what this sequence is called??
1,1,2,3,5,8,13....
Ha..way off topic still.
have a great day.
Mr. Wolfe:
Please keep our private life private.
Thanks,
JB
|YAWNS IN TECHNICOLOR|
I didn't say God and scripture are isolated issues. I said that you can't use one to argue against the other for most issues. I don't think the purpose of scripture is to expound facts for us to use to win arguments over scientists.
rose,
I'm impressed. I didn't know you graduated from Purdue School of Science. Remarkable I must say.
thanks Adam:)
Also, your one line is what I was getting at in my whole comment from above. Good job..much better spoken than me.
It is a Fibronacci sequence, useful in detailing generational reproduction models.
Do I win a prize?
lol.
Mr. Fibronacci = JB
YESSSS!
Bye.
JB
Thank you, J.B., for clarifying your argument and extending the peace branch. I gladly accept your offer and hope to carry on a mutually edifying dialogue.
I understand your support of the United States’ apparent efforts at abolishing terrorist activity through military endeavors. Yet, if the support of terrorist activity is sufficient cause for a military attack, perhaps the only just response of the United States would be to bomb ourselves. Long before US personnel were committing acts of human rights terrorism at the Abu Garib prison camp, dictators whose regimes were quick to practice ethnic persecution and terror were installed and protected in South American countries (Paraguay, Argentina, etc.) by the US government. Consider further, the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador, who was shot while conducting Mass by a sniper of the ruling Salvadorian party whose members were personally trained by US forces.
This is not to deride the contributions of those women and men who serve in the US Armed Forces; rather, it is to say that our hands are equally stained with the blood-guiltiness of terrorist activity.
I believe your assessment of US Foreign policy is correct, that is, the US has done a good job of moving the fighting and danger away from the home-front and its citizens. Though it is not in “our” back yard, we live in a global community, and this violence is a clear and present reality in the lives of our global neighbors (Luke 10.29). It is the government’s responsibility to tend to the care of its constituency, but that care cannot come at the expense or to the detriment of another people group. Whether the fighting is in Baghdad, Iraq or Baghdad, KY, the outcome is the same, humans are being killed. Why should we relish our peace, when our brothers and sisters have no peace? Why should we value our own life above the life of our global neighbor? Surely, this is not the example our Saviour gave!
As to the specific questions you posed to me:
“What would your solution be, is my question for you? If we did not force the fight elsewhere, and another building was destroyed with massive loss of civilian life, what would be your course of action?”
I gladly concede that I am not a political scientist nor a military strategist, and consequently, I am utterly unequipped to adequately answer such a question with specific details. With that said, I now propose a vague policy embodying my “gut” reaction.
As a Christian I am compelled to give the naïve answer of Jesus, “Turn the other cheek.” Perhaps the absurdity of this suggestion makes me a coward, for logic and the overwhelming testimony of legal history make clear that the retribution should be proportionate to the attack. One might think that the passive resistance of Jesus has no place in the world of international affairs, yet I am not willing to concede it.
O that we had nurtured the children of our enemies; given them food, shelter and water; treated them as our brothers and sisters and children. Not in order that they might relent of their evil, but because they are fully human and deserve these things.
Perhaps I am a foolish dreamer, one who has not place in public office or even behind a pulpit, but in the words of John Lennon, “I am not the only one.” The Hebrew prophet Amos spoke of a day when “justice would flow down like waters, and righteousness like an everlasting spring,” and dare I suggest that it is in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth that these things might be fulfilled. As a Christian, I cannot, I will not, concede this prophetic imagination that flies in the faces of logic and empire and military might. For I truly believe that through these teachings the world is redeemed and peace is established.
OK, Matt. Let's talk about something else. Our premises on this topic are diametrically opposed, although we serve the same GOD. We would never convince each other. I will not fight with you, even verbally, out of respect.
Although once Wolfie reads your post, he will probably gnaw on the arm of his chair, pee his pants and then give you an earful. lol.
JB
JB,
Sounds good! You're a gentleman and a scholar.
Exodus 15
1Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
4Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
6Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
7And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
8And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
13Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.
14The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.
15Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.
16Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
17Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O LORD, which thy hands have established.
18The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
19For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.
20And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
21And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Seems pretty violent action to me. Wow, I should call them up and tell them to turn the other cheek!
Numbers 31
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
19And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
20And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.
And then God was mad that they did not kill all the enemy (women too)?
Althought God did say in the New Testament that our war was on our souls and the the evil of this world. Even then you cannot set aside the warring evils of this world on our homes
1Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,
2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
And I just don't want to copy the whole entire book of Revelations. Isn't that pretty gory?
I won't take a verse out of context.. I will just give you the whole chapter. Yes Jesus said to give the other cheek, but I also think God wanted us to stand up for ourselves and our nation to some extent of his law.. The New Testament did not do away the Old but merely showed us how we should live and honor our Father. The Old Testament is an example of how God said his nation should be. This means if our country continues in this present state.... We probably will be walking the desert for 40 generations and be overwhelmed by our enemies to cleanse of our sins!!!
You have to live by the whole Bible not just pick out what you want. And our country is guilty of doing just that, as well as myself at times. (I have now pulled the plank out of my eye - that hurt)
And as a country should we now turn around and feed our enemies to come back and smite us? Should we kill all women and children as it was done in the Bible? I guarantee that our enemies don't give a crap about us! I have been there and seen it. Talk from experience not what you hear on the news. (propaganda and lies to have the biggest headlines is what they are for) Even my Daddy taught me to not believe what is on TV or I would have thought the CAT IN THE HAT was real~!
Wolfe
I am done with this subject moving on!
I am definately not going to let you have the last word on this. If God is for war, why don't we wage jihad agains all people who don't believe as we do. I think we would all agree the Crusades were screwed up. The reason why Christ died for us is so that we would be free from the law. We have a little thing called grace now. He took care of all our sins.
here is a little bit of scripture:
Romans 7:5-7
5For while we were (F)in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were (G)aroused by the Law, were at work (H)in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6But now we have been (I)released from the Law, having (J)died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in (K)newness of (L)the [a]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7(M)What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? (N)May it never be! On the contrary, (O)I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "(P)YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
If you want to uphold the old and use things like "an eye for an eye" although it says in Matthew 5 "you have heard that it has been said of men of old "an eye for and eye, a tooth for a tooth" but I tell you this: If a man hit you on the right cheek, turn the other cheek to him also. If you think we should always go to war with people because the Bible says so then throw out matthew 5:43-44 that says "you have heard that it has been said, love your neighbors and hate your enemies" but I tell you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
Please please don't throw around old testament law if you are not willing to uphold ALL new testament law. By that I mean, stop eating shellfish, stop eating pork, don't wear clothing of mixed fabric, stone audultresses, on and on... Also, our war that we are in right now is not a holy war (jihad). Not at all, so I am not even sure scripture dealing with war holds up in this situation. I fully support all the people over there. My sister is in the army and you most likely will be heading to Iraq soon. I do think, as Matt said, it could have been handled differntly. We are almost trying to totally change a culture to our western way of living. I am not sure they are ready for that. We went over there because they had weapons of mass destruction, yet we have found none. I don't think we need to fight about whether or not it is good that they are over there though. We already are, and if we just completly pulled out now, we would leave a nation completely war torn and in disarray. Hopefully, by the time we leave, we will have been able to repair a lot of damage and make them free of the insurgents. They have now elected an official government. Let's see what happens from there.
One last thing, when congress decided to keep us over there (because bush doesnt have the power to keep us there more than 180 days or something like that *remember that Kerry supporters, he supported us going over there* I am not endorsing Bush, but stop blaming him!), I am not sure they were sitting around withthe Bible going, "well, I wonder how the Bible would handle this" we really are not a government based on Christian values.
I don't know if this made any sense at all, and again, it is totally off topic.
have a great day!
"I won't take a verse out of context.. I will just give you the whole chapter. Yes Jesus said to give the other cheek, but I also think God wanted us to stand up for ourselves and our nation to some extent of his law.. The New Testament did not do away the Old but merely showed us how we should live and honor our Father. The Old Testament is an example of how God said his nation should be. This means if our country continues in this present state.... We probably will be walking the desert for 40 generations and be overwhelmed by our enemies to cleanse of our sins!!!"
I did say just about what you said Rose just differently.. We are not perfect but we do need to defend our country. WMD are not the only reasons we are there.
I did point out the difference of both the New and Old testement.
You are correct on the military staying there in that arena of war.. there are reasons the government does not tell us.
And yes we will one day be over-ridden by our enemies as God would see it.. IT is given as examples in the Old Testament.
You make it sound as though I have no respect for the Old Testament. I have utmost respect for its words, and have dedicated my formal education to its study. I am all for an Old Testament form of governance, provided we do not merely choose those passages which amalagamate well with our current political identity.
Show me a society that will forgive the debts of all members of the community on the seventh year, that will cease working and warring every Sabbath, that will create special communities for those guilty of accidental deaths, that will treat resident aliens as brothers and sisters and give them all the benefits of citizens, that will take care of the widows and ophans, the list goes on and on ...
And then, I will show you a society that is fully capable of waging a Holy War sanctioned by God, a society that can properly administer the death penalty, and a society that has the right and priveledge of envoking God's name on its public affairs.
Rose:
That argument is beneath you, in my opinion. GOD has not changed between the Old and New Testament. And, please-pretty please, quit blaming us for other cultures. We didn't asked to be bombed at pearl harbor, and we didn't ask for our buildings to be knocked down. Here is a novel idea - Why don't they leave US alone. They hate us, and our blessings probably because they serve a false god. The bible also prophesies that "there will be wars and rumors of war." in the end times so there is not going to be a lot we can do to stop wars, although we still need to be judicious about ones we engage in. OK. I have a lot more to say, but I will not out of respect for your wishes in a certain area. Suffice it to say that saying GOD is always for or against something is generally dangerous ground. Remember Phineas? He executed two people and it was counted as righteousness. However, saying GOD is for killing people would be wrong. Saying GOD is against war, is like someone saying GOD is against sex. It is sort of silly. HE is interested in the context and motivation.
GOD is a GOD of grace as you say, but you cannot discount that HE is also a GOD of wrath. He cannot be put in a doctrinal box.
One other thing. We ARE a government based on a Christian foundation. Look at how our government was founded, and our founding fathers' faith in particular. We are going away from that though, and maybe that was your point.
Matt:
I told you Wolfie would wax eloquent!! lol.
Adam:
Why do you find it remarkable that Rose graduate from Purdue? That was an odd comment, in my opinion. I don't find it remarkable. Anyone who knows her would probably find it remarkable she HASN'T graduated from Harvard....yet. That is why I said part of her argument was beneath her. She is really smart.
Bye.
JB
Hey!!!!!
We can get this thread to 50!!!
JB
I miss Thom. I can't wait for him to get back from DC.
He will be amazed at the amount of writing we have done, won't he Rose?
I think this is post 49!!!!
lol.
JB
Uhhhhh...... STANDPIPES!!!
YESSSSS!! You hit 50 comments on this thread.
It now has absolutely nothing to do with what we started talking about, but there you are.
JB
While we are totally off topic, I have an idea for another post, although it would probably generate several hundred nasty comments.
Your cousin had said I was not a woman or pregnant, and therefore shut up about abortion. However, I am a father of 4 children and that comment got me thinking. What is a man's rights in abortion. What if my wife wanted to kill MY children while they were in her uterus? Could I have her charged with murder? What about a man declaring a legal "abortion" wherein he doesn't want the child and thefore has it declared legally "aborted" such that even the the child is alive and well, he bears no responsibility for it?
Just some lines of thought that might generate a lot of discussion in a separate post.
Your Friend,
JB
I understand that we are a country that was founded on scriptures, and I agree we are far from that. (just as this post is so far from terry schievo, it's not even funny.) I think both the old and new testament are still very important, I do not think that we should use scripture as an excuse to go to war. I understand that there will be more war in the end times. I understand that sometimes it just can't be avoided. Ok..done talking about it.
oh yeah..thanks jonathan..i feel smart now :)
uh, wow.
there are comments on here longer than posts should be.
maybe rose should just have a message board?
or maybe you long posters should start your own blog?
jb,
I find it a bit odd that you found my comment odd.
But,
The reason I said it was remarkable is that 1)Its good to validate peoples achievements (when they have actually acheived something 2)My roommate was a science guy and he spent tons of time working on it. So I know it takes alot of effort to pursue science, I find that remarkable, maybe theory of relativity remarkable, but remarkable all the same. and 3)I had no doubt that Rose was very bright. But one wouldn't get the impression from the blog that she was into science, so I found it remarkable in a "surprised to hear that" sort of way.
Adam:
I find it odd that you found it a bit odd that I found your comment odd.
I achieved something once, but I can't remember what it was.
Man, I am funny. I'll be here all week. Try the veal. rofl.
JB
You are all "ODD"..
I find it odd that JB found it odd that Adam found it a bit odd that JB found his comment odd that Adam found it odd that Rose was bright..
Wolfe
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