Wednesday, September 28, 2005

sometimes I start smiling and i just can't stop.

Sigh...:) it's been a pretty cool week.

*Ok. Moving on. So Tyana...my life is random? What??? Ok. Maybe I agree with you, but could you please elaborate. I remember back in August when Matt came to visit me. Matt is my Princeton friend. He is smart. He was telling me how one of his professors thinks that you can figure out a person by studying their social web. Matt said he didn't even think he could begin to draw my social web. So there...maybe that means I am impossible to figure out.

Intelligent Design

Alright. Here we go. Asher had an interesting post on his blog. I suggest that you click here to read it. I think I attempted to talk a little bit about this a few posts back. I failed miserably. Here are my thoughts now. I am a huge fan of evolution. It is probably one of my favorite areas of science. Maybe this is because I love to play with DNA. I don't know. I love Darwin. Now all conservative Christians reading this...insert gasp here _____ . The truth is, I don't really care how the world was created. I mean I do care, but not enough to sit around and worry about whether or not the Bible has it pegged exactly right. Maybe this is the hard thing about being a scientist. I think faith is much harder. Ok...so...people that take the "God created the world in 7 days" approach...that's fine with me...that's what you believe...go with it. I can't say that I think the days are literaly. Dude...they are GOD days. I think that the word they actually used in the Hebrew (was it Hebrew Matt? You are my genius language scholar) was length of time. Another problem I have is that the seven day approach was given in Genesis 1, in Genesis 2, it gives a whole other view of creation. In Genesis 1, the earth was covered in water. In Genesis 2, the earth was dry. Plus, both accounts are nearly exactly like other Pagan accounts of creation. I'm a little too lazy to look it up right now...but I know one of them was the Babylonian account. Ok...I think I am straying from my orginal point. Sorry. I do that pretty frequently. Let me get back on...

Intelligent design? Do I believe there is a God? Hell yeah... Do I believe he is fully capable of creating this world...hell yeah. How did he do it? It's not that big of a deal to me...and it doesn't make my faith in him any stronger or any weaker.

Evolution? Is it any coincidence that mitochondria and cholorplasts look like bacteria? I don't think so. Is it any coincidence that we have the ability to adapt? I don't think so.

I think that Christians need to stop worrying about trying to prove how the world was created. I am not sure that this is the ticket to winning people to Christ.

So teaching creationism in public schools... does it belong in the Bible literature class or in the science class? Again, I look back at the excorcism of Emily Rose. There were two very different camps of beliefs. The God side and the science side. Can those two come together? With how our public school system is set up, I don't think so. I do know that not much time is even spent on evolution in the public school classroom. Why not spend just a few more minutes mentioning another theory? We learn about different historical theories in the sciences that made absolutely no sense. So even if intelligent design makes no sense to you...why not throw it out there? We learn about Greek mystical gods...I am pretty sure that they get some mention even in science. So what is the big deal about throwing the Yahweh God out there for a few? They are both theories...so teach them as that. Now microevolution...that's good stuff. that deserves all the mention it can get. Some people freeze up at the word evolution. They don't want to hear anything about anything that pertains to evolution. All I have to say about this is "know your enemies." <-- great line from my population biology teacher (Dr. Hancock).

If that made sense...great. If it didn't... I'm sorry. It's early. It's so early even that I'm not going to spell check or grammar check...(evil laugh here)

So what if I started considering myself an agnostic? Can I do that even if I still have a full believe in God...I just can't figure anything else out? How would the Baptists take that? Can I be an agnostic Christian? Oh well...I hate labels...whatever. I just stay confused.

12 comments:

rose said...

oh snap matt...thanks for the clarification. So day is defined...scrap that. I totally agree with you though...I don't think it is supposed to be particularly telling us how the world was created.

Now about being agnostic...Since I have too much knowledge...I can't be? Or I know about God so I can't be...but what if I cant figure out what to believe about God? Or religion...are there diffrent realms of agnosticism?

... said...

I don't think ID can be proposed/taught as a theory. Evolution is relying on evidence to prove itself... though the pieces of evidence tend to have huge margins of error... and I personally think it's futile until we have an accurate way to determine the conditions of the Earth at the given time... think about this: To know the conditions of the Earth then you would theoretically be able to know the conditions at any given moment in time. You learn in any statistics course and from Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle that this is impossible. So basically we can only guess approximately how the Earth was at that point in time, leaving huge error factors about the primordial soup that, even if we were to create a cell in a test tube, we wouldn't be able to accurately say, "This is how it happened some 4 billion years ago."

Anyway I stray: the reason ID can't be taught as a theory is because it just relies on process of elimination for chance and governing laws of nature... i.e. if something didn't happen by chance or the laws in place then it was an intelligent act. By eliminating the former two you haven't proved the latter, you've just opened up two slots for different possibilities as soon as the next scientist with a convincing argument steps up to the plate.

So maybe throw it out there as a pretty idea, but definitely speak of the shortcomings of it as an actual theory. Until you can know the intelligence of the designer and make actual predictions of what's to come, and then you must subsequently test and prove them for it to be an actual theory... sorry about the length but I thought that should be conveyed.

rose said...

Asher...you're so smart. I think that is what I said basically...throw it out there...

Anonymous said...

Thank you Rose for being you! Where else can someone get this type of refreshing thought and conversation with a bunch of cool people?

I think the truly sad part of evolution and the debates that rage over it is this, people either do not read Darwin or they do not understand him. I love the basic principles of the theory, but I certainly wouldn't pick that to be my scientific argument against creation! I am changing all of the time, that doesn't mean that I was not a part of creation.

I agree that by stating you believe in God your would be thrown out of the agnostic club, but I never tell anyone what they can or can't do ;)

If anyone ever wants to torture themselves with a horrible movie, try out "Jesus Christ, Vampire Hunter" there is some funny dialog with the atheists and you can watch Jesus whoop up on some undead. There is my random contribution for the day.

-thom

Dr. Forbush said...

Thanks for the interesting post.

I would say that religious ideas can be taught in public schools as long as it is made clear that they are religious ideas and not science. These religious ideas are already taught in English classes, such as mythology.

The problem is teaching religious ideas next to evolution in a science class. Since creationism or intelligent design have no observable evidence they should not be taught in science class.

I have written a couple of blogs on this topic already, so I won't rehash what I have already written...

Anonymous said...

It's funny I think when people argue about evolution, ID, and all that jazz. All these theories that people spend so much time trying to "prove" or "debunk." You can give a person all the "proof" in the world and they still would not necessarily agree with the theory. Why? Because in the end, it all comes down to faith. Even an athiest has faith that what they believe is the truth. Another example: I can not "prove" to anyone that my name is Matt and that I have a mother. I could show identification, birth certificate, DNA tests, pesronal testimonies, etc. But the validity of all these "proofs" ultimately must either be accepted or rejected as the truth by the person who questions my name or that I have a mother - they must ultimately choose to believe or not to believe - ain't free will fun?

Truth is truth however. Some people believe that we all have our own personal "truth" and my truth can be different from yours or anyone elses, but that's really just a flashy way of saying there is no truth. Here's where a little common sense is needed. Use what everybody knows and accepts to be true, like if you immerse your bare hand in a tub of tepid water, it will get wet. There are all kinds of simple truths like this that occur in nature, but even these must be either accepted or rejected by each individual. My point here is that if a person can accept these simple truths as they are, and recognize that they always are as they are regardless of any one person's point of view then they can acknowledge that truth is absolute; it's not relative.

So the challenge for everybody is to discern the truth from the lies. Even more challenging is trying to convince someone who has accepted the lies for truth that what they believe is not true. Here's a good analogy that I have heard (from Christopher West btw I highly recommend checking out some of his work on Theology of the Body - awesome stuff) to drive home the point.

Suppose everyone in the world drives around with flat tires - it's the norm everybody does it because that's the way those tricky rim-makers have always said tires should be since the invention of tires, just a rubbery "protective" glove for the metal rim. So everyone is constantly having to get their rims repaired and replaced, but that's ok because that's how it is right? Then one day some brilliant kid comes along with the idea to inflate everybodys' tires with air. Arguing is pointless and accomplishes nothing, so the kid doesn't just tell them the truth about tires, he shows them how well his car rides with inflated tires and he even inflates some of his friends tires up as well and gets them to show everybody how much fun driving really is. He tries to show everyone the truth about tires by example, not by arguing. Of course the rim-makers find out about this kid and have him taken care of, but it's too late - the truth about tires is out of the bag. So now there are two camps of people those who accept the truth about tires, and those who for whatever reason still accept the lies about tires, but regardless of which camp you may be in, it does not change the truth about tires.

Ultimately knowledge and understnading of truth is a gift from God, so why argue about it? Won't change a thing.

Finally, the term Christian agnostic is an oxymoron, since an agnostic beliieves that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God, and a Christian believes not only in the existence of God, but they also believe in a partial understanding of the nature of God e.g. Triune, merciful, just, etc.

I think I just figured out why I never liked proofs all that much. :)

Anonymous said...

My momma says "Science is the Devil"

Anonymous said...

all I know is if If our kids can't go to school and learn about God, than I am going to fight every known law to allow all of these other beliefs to not be allowed either.

No God, then no to Greek Mythology, Darwinism, Anarchist, Scientology, Mormanism, Nazi, KKK, Black Panthers, Muslim, Hindu, and the list goes on.

You say these are not taught now!?! Well yes they do, they influence everything! Open a History book. Open a Literature book. If you talk about it, you are planting a seed! Curiosity is a unique gift given to man. That is why we are blessed and corrupted today.

These are the same people who give rights to people who strap on bombs and blow people up. You can't be a person benifical to community you should forfiet all rights. These are the ones who influence these things...

No you say?!? I am just going to say "Hitler" Even he read the Bible and made his own religion from it.

Anonymous said...

this is amy... i'm just posting as anonymous because i don't feel like setting up an account

anyway, you can be an agnostic christian/catholic/baptist. it's very possible. the working definition of an agnostic is someone who believes you can't prove the existence of a higher being. it doesn't mean you are an unbeliever. it just means you can't prove it.

onto the creationism thing... i don't think it should be taught in public schools. there is no scientific proof (besides one guy who wrote the dumbest book ever) to back up the theory of creationism. until evolution and natural selection are disproved, there should be no need for the teaching of a second theory... maybe a two-second mention, but that's it. in all fairness, creationism isn't even a theory. it's a belief based on the scientific definition of a theory as something that can be tested and observed.

in closing, the exorcism of emily rose is an awesome movie, and everyone should go see it... thank you

rose said...

amy...It's great that you stopped by...I'm not going to lie...

Anonymous said...

it's good to feel appreciated and stuff... tear

Wasp Jerky said...

"all I know is if If our kids can't go to school and learn about God, than I am going to fight every known law to allow all of these other beliefs to not be allowed either."

There's a difference between "learning about God" and thinly-veiled attempts to convert people or push Christianity down their throats. It's not as though people don't study about Christianity in schools in one form or another. Really, Christians would be quite happy to have prayer in schools. They would be happy to have Christian afterschool clubs. But would they be happy to have equal time for every other religion under the sun, including satanists and witches? I think not. This is about Christians wanting to have their cake and eat it too.